WEBVTT

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WILLY BRANDT IN INTERVIEW WITH        
        HORST SCHÄTTLE, ZDF, DECEMBER 1988

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When Hitler came into power,

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you decided to leave Germany.

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First you moved to Norway,        
        then to Sweden.

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Later on...

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you were always confronted        
        about this decision

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with an undertone of        
        "Willy Brandt chose the easy way out".

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Yes. First of all, calling it an        
        "easy way out" is objectively wrong.

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Many people who left        
        had a difficult time.

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I didn't have it as hard        
        as many others,

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but many people        
        were on the edge of despair

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outside of Germany,        
        especially in France.

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France was more difficult        
        than elsewhere.

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There was the view        
        that those who went into exile,

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"immigrants" as they were called,

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had plenty to eat

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while the rest starved.

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This is objectively incorrect.

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At the time, I left...

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for two reasons.

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Firstly,

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the illegal, or secret leaders        
        of my group in Berlin

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said they needed someone        
        to go to Oslo.

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I was helping to organize that        
        someone else be sent, but that failed,

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so I was told to go.

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I couldn't have stayed in Lübeck        
        at the time.

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I could have gone        
        to another part of Germany perhaps.

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But I wouldn't have been able to stay        
        in Lübeck.

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If I had, I would have been arrested.

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And especially in the early period        
        of the Nazi occupation,

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a number of bad things        
        happened locally.

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So I left in a fishing boat        
        from the Baltic Sea.

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I went to Denmark, and from there        
        to Oslo, where I was expected.

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But if you put aside        
        all these little incidents,

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then I have to say        
        in retrospect that I can't see

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why there was a national duty

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to allow oneself to be imprisoned        
        or beaten to death.

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Or simply beaten.

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I have great respect for how other        
        people choose to live their lives,

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but I just can't understand        
        that it was a national duty

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to go to war on Hitler's behalf.

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I know many people        
        had no other choice.

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And I know how many people

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did it not just because they had to,

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but because of        
        their convictions at the time.

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Or because they believed

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there was no other solution        
        for the nation.

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All I ask is to respect those        
        who say it was not less honourable

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to risk their lives        
        fleeing from Hitler's regime

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than it was to take part in it.

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To formulate it cautiously.